N.L. premier discusses equalization, carbon tax issues | Power Play with Vassy Kapelos

and Andrew Fury is the premier of new Finland and Labrador hi Premier good to have you back on the show thanks for making the time no problem hopefully you’re not melting up there uh sort of we we are a little bit but uh we we’ll we’ll get to another sort of Icebreaker and that’s around Premier your requests and your legal challenge with Equalization and and I wanted to start off with a simple question that the federal government happens to be made up of liberals you’re also a liberal why aren’t you talking to them about this instead of taking them to court so we are talking to them about it and let me be clear this is a problem that goes across uh political lines uh goes across political colors uh this formula hasn’t been changed since 2008 in which prime minister Harper at the time had changed the formula and put in a fiscal capacity cap which is systematically uh hurts newal and Labrador and Saskatchewan uh so while it may while it may appear that the timing is one liberal against the other that’s not the case at all this is Frank Newland and Labrador standing up for what we think is right and just and it’s a question of fairness for us it has less to do with political flavor political color and more to do with what’s right and what’s fair for newlanders and labradorians and I certainly do understand the fairness argument I covered politics at West for a number of years and I have covered this issue because the ask from those provinces has come frequently and furiously for for for a very similar thing the federal government though in this iteration has had a number of opportunities to meet they’ve made changes only at the very periphery they have not taken any uh large scale changes uh to her essentially again is there a reason that you’re going to court are you unconvinced that they will well I think you just articulated it I think you know I think we’ve had informal and formal conversations about the structural issues uh that exist in the in the formula and the subsequent unfairness that is perceived and is real for new land in Labrador and subsequently uh we needed to elevate and accelerate uh this conversation uh both with the federal government and more broadly uh vashy on a on a national stage uh speaking with Premier eie the last week um frankly I think he’d be uh willing to uh to say that he was shocked with the some of the quantums that when when we looked at it together with respect to Equalization and how Newland and Labrador gets zero and how British Columbia gets zero if you if you look at the uh if you look at how it’s been distributed just as an example from 2010 to 2023 Quebec and The Maritime Provinces combined got over $200 billion doll in Equalization meanwhile British Columbia and New Finland and Labrador got zero so it is a question of of fairness uh and it’s a it’s I I I hope uh the federal government uh sees that uh I hope now that there is uh potential Court action that it will accelerate what could be a diplomatic solution and reevaluate the formula in a more fome way have they shown you any um show shown any willingness in your conversations today we asked one of our reporters asked the Finance Minister about this issue whether she was prepared to to make any changes uh the specifics of the formula obviously she said are of great interest to provinces and territories they are regularly on the agenda for the meeting of the federal Finance Minister and provincial Finance ministers and officials discuss them regularly and that is as it should be she said she’s been in touch with you has she shown any willingness to you directly to amend the formula look the Deputy Prime Minister and I have a great relationship um and I believe she’s an excellent Finance Minister and we have a good relationship however the the formula the spirit of the formula is not our argument is twofold so let me start with that with respect to the Constitution we don’t believe that uh the spirit is being reflected in the actual formula itself so the Constitution as you know states that there should be reasonable level of services for reasonably comparable level of Taxation right now there is no proxy for services so if you look at a province like Newland and Labrador we’re three times the land mass of the Maritime Provinces combined with one quarter of the population so we have significant Geographic historic density demographic uh uh issues structural issues and delivering similar level of services to for example our friends in Prince Island and that’s not knocking them in any way shape or form we just want the the the formula as it should be to reflect the delivery of services and right now it does not so if you take a the federal Ser pardon me P me but the federal government’s response to that is provide us with documentation of all the federal transfers that go to New Finland over $1.1 billion do they say in major transfers this year outside of Equalization it is fair to say that the federal government has increased transfers to provinces including yours if you look at all the the sum total of U formalized transfer payments I’ll say that um um Newland and Labrador gets about $2,000 per capita you look at Quebec it gets about $3,100 per capita if you look at provinces like Manatoba $4,500 per capita uh the other Maritime Provinces around four to 55 4,000 to 5500 per capita so there is while and I don’t take the argument of these one-offs because if they want to compare apples to apples we should compare apples to apples we look at the battery plants we’ll look at 750 million for Asylum Seekers will look at all of it I’m happy to have that conversation perhaps we should but that is a false argument because as we know within this Federation there are one-offs for many provinces for different issues so to single out oneoff for new Fin and Labrador and not and make that a divisive uh proposition I don’t think is certainly something that uh we should be comparing unless we’re comparing all the oneof so then let me Circle back to my original question which I didn’t get an answer to which is has the federal Finance Minister shown any willingness directly to you to amend the formula well she’s shown some willingness to amend the what I would say is the a calculus of the formula um uh in terms of um establishing what’s included or not included in the taxation uh parameters uh but I have yet and I look forward to a conversation with her and I think we can have a fome conversation about things like the fiscal capacity cap which was inserted uh to to look at Natural Resources differently and actually punishes new and Labrador so there while there’s been some willingness on the taxation side I’d like to see a more broad approach a broader willingness uh to discuss things like the fiscal capacity cap and the contemplation uh for delivery of services I mean that’s what was contemplated in the constitution in 1982 right now you have a formula which conceivably is a minus b equals c and we’re only considering a and other other countries with similar schemes and similar programs as Equalization do have proxies by the way uh for equivalence of services we don’t and I think we should I I want to switch gears for a moment Before I Let You Go Premier because this isn’t the only point of friction between yourself in the federal government the carbon tax has been front and center for a number of months and has cost you politically at the provincial level the Prime Minister has said that you are bowing to political pressure by voicing your opposition to the carbon tax is he right no I mean we’ve we’ve expressed our opposition to the carbon tax really since I became Premier um so it’s not bowing to political pressure this has been our position all along I will say that um the Prime Minister has uh shown a willingness uh to alternatives to the back stop um uh I think that that was somewhat new news to us um after 2021 so I’m happy and our government is working hard right now to show that New Finland and abdor it can meet its targets without a carbon tax we will meet its targets our targets without a carbon tax and I look forward to uh seeing a response from the federal government so Sor your your impression is that the federal government is okay with your Province coming up with some alternative to a carbon tax because they have not said that to Canadians they have insisted that everyone needs a consumer carbon tax in some way or form as long as it’s you know aligned with the the back stop so you wouldn’t need the back stop essentially if you had something yeah so we’re looking at Al so they have as you know there’s different um they they have a willingness to entertain a different system like cap and trade um and I know Manitoba is looking at proposing a a made in Manitoba solution uh newand and Labrador will be coming forward with a made in newand and Labrador solution my problem with the carbon tax as I’ve said all along and I think I may have said to you or on your program before is it New Finland and Labrador right now it just simply doesn’t work it’s whenever you design a policy you have to ask what is the intent of the policy the intent of the policy is to lower emissions so let’s just perk the conflation of rebates and the fiscal implications it’s to lower emissions so in Newland and Labrador right now we is people who want to change can’t change and it you know we need we perhaps when the program was designed back in 15 we thought we’d have more infrastructure available uh but right now New Finland and Labrador does not have necessarily the ability to change so absent the ability to change what is this tax accomplishing and how is it changing Behavior so mod again sorry to interrupt Premier but they’re modeling from the not their modeling the Canadian climate Institute which is funded by the government has assessed through their modeling that it will do that if we if we isolate the policy objective as you point out of reducing emissions that it will do so by 2030 by anywhere from 9 to 10% of the total reduction in emissions by that time 100% that’s for Canada by large that’s not for New Finland and Labrador so it goes back to my original point about the CH structural challenges in delivering services like electric vehicles like charging stations to a population of 530 540,000 that has the the lowest population density uh in the country that it has challenges with respect to uh GR growing economies in Rural and remote uh areas so that’s the problem I I don’t disagree that it will work in Vancouver or work in Montreal work in downtown Toronto perhaps in Southern Ontario but the density uh and the investment required uh to achieve that goal to allow for options to change to allow for uh the policy to actually work and drive changing behaviors is a struggle for Newland and Labrador right now giving given our structural issues I just have time for one question I want it to be a political one before we leave because I referenced those by elction we I referenc those those byelections because we’ve been watching them from the federal scene with with great interest and the comments that come out of it how unpopular is this policy and do you think you’d lose an election over it um look it’s not my policy it’s not my wearing it yeah but we well we’ve told the people of New Finland and Labrador we oppose it in fact what we’ve done is when the carbon tax went up we cut the gas tax here in newf Landon Labrador it’s the second lowest in the country so we’re trying our best to mtig uh the carbon tax that is a federal tax um and while it is a you know we will continue to make that argument for newlanders and lab to newlanders and labradorians we’ll continue to make that argument for newlanders and labradorians on a national stage are you worried you’re wearing it though you must be after those byelections well you know we had two byelections we won one in a traditional uh conservative uh District that’s been conservative for two decades I think uh people forget that uh so within the last uh six months we won one lost two that’s not unusual for an incumbent government uh but certainly we hear loud and clear that the carbon tax is an issue across New Finland and Labrador it’s not one we support it’s not one that I have particularly ever supported while I can understand the concept behind it it just is practical not it’s practically not achievable in newf land in lador right now okay Premier I’ll leave it on that note appreciate you making the time as always thank you great noit

Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Andrew Furey says he never supported a carbon tax, but says he is willing to look at alternatives.

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