hello I’m Matt Galloway and this is the current podcast it is a political who done it parliamentarians including members of this house knowingly and wittingly assisted a hostile foreign state in Parliament and in our elections to the detriment of the people of Canada this is shocking simple question will the Prime Minister release the names of these parliamentarians it’s a conservative MP Michael Chong in the House of Commons speaking about allegations that some members of parliament knowingly helped foreign governments medal in Canadian Affairs the allegations come from a report by the National Security and intelligence Committee of parliamentarians or enop the identities of the MPS in question were redacted for national security reasons and as you heard some MPS are demanding the government name names but Public Safety Minister Dominic leblan said it’s not their place we agree with members of this house that the appropriate Forum to look at these matters is the commission already set up and operating officials from the privy Council Office have already been in touch with the hug commission to determine the best way forward we think that’s a responsible way to proceed not simply standing up and illegally announcing a list of names like my colleague suggest Renee vilmer is the block keka MP for TR rier he’s also his party’s ethics critic he put forward a motion to have the report included in the foreign interference inquiry and the house will vote on that motion later today alist McGregor is an NDP MP for CCH and malahat Langford in British Columbia he’s also that party’s Public Safety critic and they both join us now good morning to you both good morning good morning Renee Michael trong says these allegations are shocking would you agree of course they are shocking when we read the report actually we even though we knew some of the stuff we went actually crazy this is big have they changed the way that you look at your colleagues in the house well from our part of the we uh haven’t been the target of fore interference so actually for our party I mean we we’re pretty safe but we are worried that some of us right now are sitting and voting in the house and uh the problem is that we don’t know who they are how many there are and that is quite disturbing Alistair McGregor your colleague Alexander buou said in his words everybody’s a suspect that people are watching each other is it you so when when when he says that I mean how are you feeling do you feel like everybody is a suspect well there’s certainly a cloud of Suspicion over the entire House of Commons right now but you know for our small caucus we have two of our members who have D directly been impacted by Foreign interference MP Jenny Quan and of course our leader jug meet Singh so for our caucus it’s personal we understand how serious this issue is and ultimately uh you know I think I share the same view as Renee we want to find out uh who our colleagues are because ultimately this is a violation of the oath that we took when we took our seats in the House House of Commons and so given that Renee What specifically are you asking for in this motion well in the motion that we put we we brought it to the house on last Friday and we asked for the whole commission to have its mandate extended so they can look particularly in the latest allegation from the report um we know that the whole commission has a wide mandate but we wanted to shed light on this part actually because like when aler said we’re looking around and we don’t know who’s a suspect who’s not and the climate already tense in the house of come in at the end of the session is kind of uh really strange right now because we know there are people we don’t know who they are or what they did so what would you want to learn if this information is included in the scope of the inquiry well probably there are two things people are asking for names and we’re not asking for names per se we’re asking for an investigation that will um you just can’t reveal names that are classified to secret that’s a that’s a felony but we’re looking for ways to first of all uh take these people out just make sure that something like this doesn’t happen again sorry what what does that mean take these people out well they can’t sit in the house if they’ve been uh tainted by a foreign State uh I think the leaders of each party has a responsibility in identifying the people that were tainted and like as said the the uh the two NDP were targets they were not so not at all tainted it’s not the same thing but some people passed information or influence colleague in decision and this cannot be tolerated if that person like if somebody just disappears though doesn’t that suggest I mean you said uh and and and this is what Dominic leblanca said that naming names would be illegal but if the person suddenly vanishes does that not suggest that that person perhaps is is the name that that people wanted released that’s a possible consequence unfortunately but I think that if the liberal government goes as slow as they usually do people would just not uh apply again for the next election that’ll be it alist McGregor we did request an interview with Dominic Lan the public safety Minister he said no but when he was asked yesterday about releasing the names as we just heard he said that he’d been advised by the RCMP that if he did he himself could be criminally charged do you think these names should be released well look uh the liberal government uh you know they were the victim of a scathing report from enop you know if you look at the conclusion of the enop report you can see that the Liberals have really failed to treat this issue with the seriousness that it deserves I ultimately we want to arrive at a point where Canadians can be confident that the person that they are choosing in the next federal election is not compromised by a foreign power I think one of the Avenues we could be taking in the immediate term is to have all Party leaders briefed on this matter so that they learn the names and that’s something that our leader uh jug meet Singh has committed to he will be receiving a briefing on that because Party leaders have an incredible amount of power over their caucus they can figure out who gets to sit in that caucus who gets to have their nomination uh papers signed so they can run under the party’s Banner so I think those are immediate steps we can take but I understand there’s a big Gulf between intelligence and evidence and so we have to be very careful what the process is going forward but the immediate steps our party leaders should be briefed and J me Singh has said that he wants This Confidential briefing on these allegations he also promised to remove any NDP MPS from caucus if they are named that sounds like a back door way of identifying the people doesn’t it well I think it’s in line with the proactive way that we’ve approached this issue because but to be clear though I mean that does sound like a way to to identify the people without identifying the people well I’ll say this Matt um people have been removed from caucuses for far less serious offenses and we don’t always have to specify what the reason is but again this is about accountability to the Canadian public I think they’re more interested in the security of their ballots not internal party machinations at this point can he actually fire an MP if the names aren’t yet known to The Wider public and they have not had some measure of due process an MP can’t be fired but they can be removed from a party’s caucus they would still represent that seat in the House of Commons and again a party leader does have control over the nomination papers over who gets to us run under the party’s Banner that’s at least what it is like in the NDP Rene vmer the leader of the conservative party Pier PV says that uh um well he’s declined to get that same security clearance necessary so that he could be briefed he says that this would keep him from speaking out about these issues that it would be a gag order in some ways what do you think his responsibility is well I think he has bigger responsibility than that of course it’ll be some kind of gag order because he could not reveal the exact information he received but he could use that information for like Alistair said manage this caucus I think to refusing the the the briefing at this point is irresponsible and also will allow him to keep on sh outing and shouting without having to be accountable I think that the reasonable conduct would be to take the uh the the security clearance and um try to manage a c and our leader is in the process he’s thinking about it and looking at the process right now because it’s not something you do overnight but um this is I I don’t think there’s another way and um if like you said a bit earlier if people are removed from caucus people will ask questions but then again that’s a very light sentence compared to what was done in if it is the case now we’re not saying everybody is Tainted but some some question have to be asked can I just apologize for interrupting can I just ask you about the the shouting bit and what you said earlier the mood as you get toward the end of this session is a bit strange do you worry that I mean this is a very serious issue and do you worry that politics politics is always going to be part of it it’s the House of Commons but that politics Will obscure the the seriousness of these allegations because it will be a way for various parties perhaps yours to score partisan points well it somebody will use it for score partisan point but I think foreign interference has no color has no partis in color and this is public interest subject it’s security subject National Security and it should be taken as such I think that making small Politics on the subject would be very mean in the in the context Alistair what can be done now to reassure Canadians in the absence of this information that their MPS in Ottawa the MPS that they send to the capital have Canadian interest at heart that is the great question of the day Matt and again like we don’t yet know what this process is going to be but at the very outset and I think what should give Canadians uh Comfort if there is any to be found is they need to see that all of the political party leaders are taking this issue seriously are going to get briefed by security and intelligence official so that they can take the appropriate first steps how these names are eventually handled in the future I don’t know what that process will be but again you know this is known as silly season in Ottawa but because of the pernicious nature of this threat how serious it is I think we need to see a united front from all political party leaders jug meet’s committed to starting that process he will be getting briefed on this and he will be learning who the names are the pernicious nature of this threat if it’s not dealt with uh in the right way just very briefly what do you think’s at stake trust in our democratic system we already know that Canadians are having a lot of trust issue with institutions but underpinning all of those institutions is our democratic system and trust that when you cast a ballot you’re casting it for someone who has the best interests of your community at heart and Canada good to have you both here thank you very much thank you thank you Rene vmer is the bla MP for TW rier Alistair McGregor is NDP MP for couch and malahat Langford and the ndp’s public safety critic we did request to speak with conservative members Andrew shear and Michael Chong we didn’t get a response dick faden is a former National Security adviser to two Canadian Prime Ministers former director of the Canadian Security intelligence service dick good morning to you good morning why shouldn’t the names of these people who allegedly worked with foreign governments be made public well I think if their names are being being made public the current environment we are going to destroy their lives and their career they may well Merit that but they may well not and I think they are entitled to some form of due process be they parliamentarians or anybody else uh they should be deemed to be innocent until proven guilty and they’re entitled to some measure of privacy having said all of that we don’t seem to have that process in hand right now uh so we need to put that process in place because eventually I do agree the name should be made public if you and I are accused of a crime and hauled before the courts not a great analogy our names would remain public but I don’t think it should be done immediately and I think our parliamentarians should get their act together and find a way of providing them with some measure of due process in the absence of that process do you worry that the names will eventually come out whether somebody leaks them or whether a member of parliament suddenly disappears from uh a party and is removed from caucus yeah I do because I think you know there are very few things in this town that get to remain secret forever witness the the leaks that occurred last summer so I think that’s a possibility and if MPS just all of a sudden disappear I mean this is visions of what used to happen in Europe before the fall of the Berlin Wall I mean we do not need that to happen I think your earlier panelists were correct in the sense that party leaders do have a responsibility but they don’t have a responsibility to use the phrase that one of you used to just make them disappear if they disappear and they’ve been found culpable uh we should know why we the Canadian public I think should know why can you just explain what at the heart of it we’re talking about here how do you go about evaluating if a person is wittingly colluding with a foreign government what does that mean well it means that consciously they have been in contact with the representative of the foreign government they’ve developed a relationship and that relationship uh either based on intimidation or by the provision of benefits leads them uh to promote the the policies of that foreign government or in the alternative to push down Canadian policies that that government doesn’t doesn’t like but it’s basically a relationship a secret relationship that they’re conscious of and a relationship in which you are operating for the benefit of that foreign government not the government that that you are serving absolutely and now the key here is that nobody seems to be talking about a great deal is you know uh uh yes they violated their oath is there a crime that they have committed is it clear and unambiguous that there is a crime I thought that the government’s you know sort of initial wave of a hand and say this is a law enforcement matter is a little bit too BL because it’s not clear that there is a crime that they’ve committed uh other than violating their oath I don’t agree that they’ve committed treason I went through the definition of treason yesterday I think that’s going a bit too far there may be another crime I’m not a criminal lawyer so if there is the possibility of a crime then the police should look at it and they should give a considerable amount of priority to that investigation but it’s not clear that’s the case so it seems to me that’s something that needs to be cleared up before a lot of other things again understanding that you’re not a criminal lawyer let mean what is the daylight between the two what’s the threshold for criminal charges if if a parliamentarian colludes with a foreign government well I think you’d have to identify the crime is it uh some sort of breach of trust is I I just don’t know I I would would be wrong to do that you need to bring in a criminal law lawyer but it it’s not immediately obvious to me having read all the media and having thought about it and listen to people that there’s a clear clear crime uh that has been committed I mean this is one of the advantages I think of passing C70 which is the bill the government had introduced last week which does create in some manner of speaking the crime of foreign interference but you can’t accuse people of a crime that didn’t exist so I think this is more of a of an ethical and of a a of a political issue in the absence of you know somebody telling me that there’s a very very clear crime at issue but somebody somewhere be it you know the clerk of the house or the Department of Justice I think to help this debate should come out and say potentially if these facts are true this is the crime now I I assume that the way things are going uh all of this is heading towards Justice hug and I assume she being a judge will want to ask one of the questions she last yourself is what crime are we talking about here or is this a political crime quote unquote uh but even there everything is going to have to stay secret so out of all of this I think we need we we being parliamentarians they have a responsibility not hug not the police not you they I think have a responsibility to come up with a process that will eventually provide due process for those accused and the identification of those who might have survived the due process procedure when you were the cesa structor in 2010 you um said that the service was concerned that there are some provintial or Municipal politicians that could be under the sway of a foreign government you caught hell for that um you you were under the heat lamp for saying that do you feel Justified and Vindicated now I guess so but more than anything I feel depressed that it has taken us this long to get to the point to take this seriously I mean we’re seriously behind our uh our allies in ter of in recognizing in dealing with this issue uh yes I understand why over for a few years we were we were really trying very hard you know to improve our relations with with China in particular that has not worked and even if it had worked I don’t think China would have gone away entirely so my main reaction is you know this is getting worse it’s not getting better uh it’s not going to go away we need to deal with it seriously and you know with great respect for our parliamentarians I don’t think the way they’re handling this is going to you know going to attract a great deal of approbation in history so you have said just finally the last minute or so minute and a half that we have you have said we these are your words we need to do something about this before the next election the next election could be with sometime within the next year and a half what has to be done now to to back to to to Alexander’s point to to try to figure out how to ensure uh that Canadians have confidence in in what’s going on right now well I think in the short term we the Parliament should should pass C70 uh which contains a variety of measures that will help including allowing uh the CIS to talk to people about intelligence providing the crime of SE uh of foreign interference and creating a foreign registry and then the day after or the week after it receives the Royal Ascent the government should be in the position to attach to appoint a foreign interference registry commissioner uh the police and others should start talking about what they’re going to do to deal with with foreign interference I think there’s time to get a lot of this up and running if the bill gets the Royal Ascent before uh say July but you said that you don’t feel confident that parliamentarians right now are handling this with the sophistication in some ways that it needs to be no I don’t I don’t think they’re taking it I don’t think they’re viewing it as their problem when you know they’re saying it’s law enforcement or it’s Justice hug uh Mr paav in particular I think is is not viewing this seriously when he says he’s not prepared to take a briefing I understand that you know if if parliamentarians take briefings it does to some degree limit what they can say I would argue that in this particular case the national interest should Trump his desire to continue to talk about this that’s not his view good to talk to you as always thank you very much my pleasure cheers dick faden is a former National Security adviser to two Canadian Prime Ministers also the former director of the Canadian Security intelligence service
A new national security report alleges that unnamed MPs and senators knowingly helped foreign governments meddle in Canadian politics — prompting heated debate about revealing their identities and what consequences they might face.
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