Justice minister on new bill to fight harmful online content | Power Play with Vassy Kapelos

Welcome back to Power Play We want to turn to Parliament Hill and a developing story there the federal government has just tabled legislation it says will combat online harm they tabled that in the House of Commons just this afternoon Arie fani is the minister who’s overseeing the file and overseeing that

Legislation he joins me now hi Minister good to have you back on the show thanks for making the time thank you vashy the prime minister initially promised that this piece of legislation would be reintroduced within 100 days of the 2021 election that was more than 2 years ago what is the Crux

Of the difference in this version than the one you would have introduced two two years ago well VY this is really critically important legislation it’s a first of its kind in Canada uh one of the first of its kind really in the world uh and

What I would say is that it was critical that we got it right and got the balance rate and in the intervening period uh since the Mandate letter first appeared with this kind of directive to pass this legislation what we’ve done is consulted we consulted widely with Canadians with

Experts we consulted internationally we looked at what other allies Western allies were doing with legislation of this kind what worked and what didn’t work we believe we found the right balance that is a balance that is very protective of the free expression of people in a democracy as we always need

To be but that is also a balance that protects kids fundamentally protects vulnerable communities and ensures that we are empowering people in terms of their interactions online and with the internet was that primarily the challenge that you sought to address essentially the the main critique of

Your of of the first iteration of this bill was that it went too far and would limit Free Speech was your objective not to do that here our objective is always to empower people’s expression particularly with respect to to political speech my job as Minister of Justice is to defend

People’s Charter rights that is entrenched section two of the charter I will always do that but I think the careful balance is is that political speech is at the height of what is protected in Canada and I will always do that violence and violent speech is not

And what we’re seeing in Canada and around the world frankly is violence perpetrated against children in particular this bill takes a very strong step in that regard what I would say to you vashi is that you know that there are seven contents seven different types of harmful content that we are targeting

Here in two of those instances we have said that there’s no place for that content in the public discourse on the internet that is material that sexually exploits a child the type of child porography that you heard at that press conference you heard Jane speak about in

Terms of her own child and secondly content that involves the sharing of an intimate image against someone’s consent what is actually known as revenge porn it exists in this country it exists around the planet we are taking active steps to ensure that material is taken down and taken down quickly with respect

To the other C categories what we are advocating for and we want to work with the platforms on is a safety plan that helps them to mitigate the risk of the other harmful content that we have identified and that they would put in place a safety plan they would explain

What measures they’re taking to reduce risk and they would be held accountable for how well their plan is working that’s the nature of what the consultation was about that is the pivot that we made it’s an important pivot because Canadians should understand we take this seriously I take this

Seriously we’re trying to get the balance right and I believe we’ve done so on the latter category that you were explaining there I’m thinking you know as a parent and all the parents who are watching tonight if you are worried about for example your kid um having

Mental health issues and then seeing on their algorithm things that substantiate that point of view what exactly if it comes into effect will this legislation do to address those concerns well I’m also a parent vashy of two boys that now want to move from a a flip phone to a smartphone and I’m

Actually petrified of the dangers that ly on the internet I’m also troubled by the simple fact that there are more rules and regulations about the Lego in our basement for my two boys than there are for the most dangerous toy in our house and the most dangerous toy in

Every house in this country which is the screens that kids are on in the internet that is behind those screens we’re taking an active step to address the concerns of parents like me and grandparents who have grandchildren around the country and what we are doing is we entrenching a duty to protect

Children in legislation we’re entrenching rules which would say that when there’s harmful content that includes the abuse and the sexual exploitation of a child that that material must come down we are saying that harmful content includes material that would be used to bully a child or

Material that would be used to induce a child to self harm to to engage in Acts of bulimia or incredibly to actually commit things such as harmful acts to their body like suicide I think about the child that child in northern BC who two months ago was caught in one of

These situations vashi and had nowhere to turn to was afraid to admit and ashamed about what had happened when he shared an intimate image he couldn’t turn to his parents he couldn’t turn to his teachers he couldn’t turn to his friends he turned upon himself that boy

Is no longer with us that death should never have occurred vashi that is what we are doing with this legislation is we’re trying to keep kids like that boy in BC and so many others like him safe shockingly the center for Canadian child protection told us they received 70

Complaints of sex tortion every every week in this country right now and there are many more that aren’t that don’t have the wherewithal to reach out we’ve got to be doing something we are doing something with this legislation so I actually I’m so glad that you raised

That case Minister because we covered it very extensively and I spoke to the police in that instance as well they’ve actually found the individual who was the perpetrator behind that but as you mentioned there’s a whole bunch of stuff that happens in the interim can you use that example and explain to people

Watching tonight what in this legislation would change the trajectory for that poor boy does it you know how will the so are we asking these platforms to sort of take down anything that that might be involved with sextortion to because I mean it’s essentially soliciting images from these

Kids it can be done on WhatsApp which my understanding is is not covered under this legislation it can be done on DMS on Instagram which would be covered under this legislation like what today would change for that kid’s ability to avoid that situation so few things change internet platforms including social media

Platforms have a duty to protect children like that they have a duty to take down content like that the second it is flagged or complained about those are critical features we are also ensuring that people can be prosecuted for this kind of this kind of action which means that there’s something

Called the mandatory Reporting Act we’ve heard from law enforcement that they want better tools to ensure that they can prosecute these kinds of individuals we’re extending the preservation period so social media platforms would be required to hold on to this material for a longer period of time we’re extending

The amount of time for which a charge and a prosecution could be commenced by police officers that is also critical we are also ensuring that if that kind of uh intimidation tactic ever entered the public SE the public sphere in a public forum that that kind of bullying would

Be treated as harmful content and could also be flagged by the platform so there are many steps that we are taking in the absolute right direction to ensure that kids need to be protected and will be protected with this statute these platforms don’t exactly have the best track record on regulating themselves I

Understand there will be some account accountability pardon me mechanisms as laid out in this legislation how much teeth will they have there’s a a the establishment of a commission for example will there be a substantial budget behind that commission what will the budget be how many sort of powers

Will they have to seek the accountability that that that is absent from self-regulation so what I’d say to you vashy is that I’ve got a lot of respect for these companies and for the critical role they play as an educative function Etc I mean the interet can be a powerful

Tool for empowering people uh internet companies and social media companies also have a lot of responsibility and what I would say to them quite clearly is that we want to work with them clearly and we want to ensure that the message is clear that their profit imperatives that are driven by

Advertising Revenue cannot Trump the safety of Canadians and that is what is happening right now that balance has to change and in terms of the teeth you’re asking about if there is a safety plan put in place and if the the efforts to improve Canadian Safety are not being

Fulfilled pursuant to those VAR safety plans there will be consequences and the consequences are very very significant in terms of dollar amounts there are 6% of the global revenue of an entity like meta or Facebook or $10 million whichever is higher that is a very significant financial consequence and

Financial incentives for these platforms to get on board with what we are saying and what many other governments around the the planet are saying that there needs to be accountability for keeping children safe online there needs to be accountability for keeping Canadians safe online it is critical with respect

To all seven categories of harmful content that we are identifying in this bill the primary though mechanism for that accountability um I I would imagine that figures out if those fines are warranted or not though is this digital safety commission will it have a big budget will it will it be financed by

Your government in order to I mean the breadth of the scope of these companies is massive the instances of this kind of thing are they’re not small they’re not few in number I should say they are not few in number and in creating a digital safety commission we’re also creating a digital omits

Person and a digital safety office we’re creating a dedicated uh entity that will deal with this material in the online sphere and we will ensure that it has the tools to succeed and the resources to succeed it is critical but importantly for Canadians it is also important that that entity is at arms

Length for government the person who is is the digital safety commissioner will be decided on a on a motion in the House of Commons and in the Senate it is critical for Canadians to know that that entity exists that it has the expertise that it is well resourced but also that

It is objective since it is dealing with such important issues about our freedom of expression online and I do take your point on that Minister but but to what degree will it be well resourced have you outlined any kind of budget for it or you’re just insisting that that that

They will they will have the money they need my goal right now is enta this legislation is starting an important par parliamentary conversation about the nature of what what we are proposing about the tools we which we are also adding we haven’t had a chance to speak

About it but amendments to the Canadian Human Rights Act amendments to the criminal code that deal with the pressing need to address hatred in our country these are all fundamental features that we want to see proclaimed into law and we want to see once this digital safety commission is proclaimed

Into law that it is well resourced and we will ensure and prioritize that it will be just before I let you go Minister I did want to ask about s210 and uh iding kids uh IDs for rather kids on pornography State uh pornography sites the Prime Minister has vocalized

Opposition to that based on stuff that isn’t actually in the bill this idea of a digital ID for example why is your government opposed to this since it doesn’t stipulate that kind of thing so I’ve got a lot of respect for what the senator who proposed that bill

Is initiating and I think in terms of the objectives what we’re seeking to do we have very similar objectives what I would say is that the bill We R Ted today the online uh safety legislation is much more comprehensive in terms of its scope its breath and its potential

Impact what she’s trying to do with that legislation is address the acute issue of child pornography that is a concern for us that’s why you see such targeted uh uh measures that address child sex exploitation including the complimentary pieces about law enforcement that I mentioned with the mandatory Reporting

Act we are exactly on the same page in that regard where we what we are where we are differing on is how you ensure age appropriate verification and age appropriate design so that we are keeping people safe to go back to that example vashy I think Canadian parents

Are concerned about the screens but also Canadian parents would never tolerate a sexual predator near the playground of their child’s School nor a sexual predator potentially calling up their home at midnight to reach out to their child through the internet that is happening right now in an unregulated

Manner that is what will change with this legislation we will keep those kids top of mind and we will keep them safe that’s fundamental for all us just to follow up and respectfully challenge you Mr I don’t understand what is so egregious about having kids under the

Age of 18 uh you know not access those porn sites because the bill that you’re saying uh that that you’re referencing this one in the Senate it it doesn’t say exactly how that gets done right just like some parts of your bill that’s TVD to be determined at a at a later point

They’re just simply saying the bill is simply saying and and 15 I believe uh liberals voted voted in favor of it initially is simply saying that kids under 18 shouldn’t be accessing them and what I would say to you vashi is that again with respect to Bill 210

And what we’re presenting as a is a is a large package a comprehensive package there is the same objective in mind we’re trying to keep Kids Safe trying to reduce their exploitation trying to ensure the intimate sharing of part of images that not is excluded it well it

Is critical but there are a host of other measures that are included in our legislation that deal with terrorism incitements to violence hatred bullying intimidating a child ensuring that they don’t are they’re not induced to self harm our package that we’re proposing has many of the features of Bill s210

And many features that complement the goals of s210 what we’ put forward is a comprehensive package I look forward to having it discussed on the floor of the chamber and in committee to ensure how we can deal with the age appropriate design features that both the senator

Who initiated that bill and I want to see to keep Canadian children safe just very quickly what’s the harmony supporting both the issue vashi is that we have a bill that is before the the chamber right now that is much more comprehensive in terms of its scope and

What we have is the ability to get behind a bill that will keep Canadians safe Canadian children safe and ensure a duty to take down content within a 24-hour time period there are features in this legislation that are not in Bill s210 there is no takedown provision in

Bill s210 that deals with specifically the idea that child sexual exploitation material material that is used to degrade children to Target children that is used by sexual predators and pedophiles in this country that material has no business being in in Canadian Society we will ensure that that comes

Down and comes down promptly Minister I’ll leave it there I appreciate your time today very much thank you thank you vashy that’s Justice Minister Arif verani he oversees the legislation that was tabled in the House of Commons today aimed at combating online harm

Justice Minister Arif Virani speaks on what led to him tabling Bill C-63, a sweeping bill to fight harmful content online.

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