Labour minister defends carbon pricing amid high inflation | Power Play with Vassy Kapelos

The climate action incentive is now the Canada carbon rebate a Rebrand the government rolled out as you heard there today ministers at the announcement insisting that any calls from their opposition or Canada’s Premier to quote ask the tax would also ask rebates that range from $760 to about 1,200 for

Families in provinces where the price on carbon applies Sheamus oan is the federal labor labor Minister pardon me leading the announcement for the government today hi Minister great to have you back on the show thanks for making the time good to be back F Minister the sum total

Of your announcement today was a change in name of the rebate for the price on carbon should people watching tonight take that as an acknowledgement you know Canadians are not convinced of the virtues of the carbon tax as your government has presented them well I think what we did today was

Just come out what we do in every year which is to let people know how much money uh they’ll be getting back but yeah no we did change the name of it uh it’s now uh the Canada carbon rebate um and I think look the old name was

Around for about eight years um I think this is how people talk uh this is something I’ve been working on myself too you know you just talk like people talk and people associate it with carbon it is most accurately uh framed I think as as a as a rebate because indeed

That’s what it is uh eight out of 10 families do better with it um so this is a way of just I think more accurately telling people what what is going on here that the fact that they’re getting cold hard cash back in their in their

Bank accounts do you uh you agree with the assessment that people were not convinced that’s the case that they do not believe that the carbon tax makes them better off I think people are busy uh I don’t think they always go through their bank statements and everything like that but

I think it is at the end of the day people realize it is money that a lot of people rely upon I mean what we’re talking about now is uh $1,200 for a family of four in newon laborador where I’m from you know $600 for a single

Senior people are relying on that money and I think look what we what we decided was you know people are talking about the tax ATT tax ATT tax tax get rid of the tax I mean clearly the opposition has made that their uh their Mantra um

We want to let people know what is at stake because the money that they receive back in this rebate is money that a lot of people do depend on it’s a lot of money $1,200 for a family four is a lot of money $600 for a single senior

Is a lot of money so we have to I think it’s the onus is on us to more accurately characterize it and and the Minister of Finance is working with the banks to make sure that that shows up as such in statement so that you see it is

It accurate though to say that um you know that is money that yes that is money that they’re getting back it’s also money Minister though that they’ve spent and in some cases for example I’d point to what your government said at the initial outset of this policy there

Are segments of the population that are disproportionately feeling the impact so think for example of farmers of indigenous people and of small businesses 10% of what you took in was supposed to go back to those populations and it simply hasn’t since the program started why

Not no it has it has for people who are of lower income or you know uh many middle class families they are getting much more back than they were before I mean depending on the provin sometimes it’s you know nine out of 10 households are getting more back some are are eight

General and National averages eight are getting more back because we’re taking more from big polluters and it is being distributed fairly to other people I mean that’s basically how the social safety net and Canada works all together so you know we’ve applied the same principle here it is working people are

Getting money back in their bank accounts you know look we got to I think you know let people know that I think that’s really important everybody’s busy I’m busy everybody’s got stuff to do but my job and the job of many of us is to make sure that people understand where

Their taxpayer dollars are going or where their money is going when they pay into something like a price on pollution and when we in effect make a promise that it will go back to them eight out of time8 out of 10 families are getting more back I think you know the onus is

On us to make sure that we get that message correct I have two things to sort of unpack and PSE apart there and disrespectfully challenge you first of all when you say eight out of 10 families are getting back more than they uh have paid in that is based on

Analysis according to the Parliamentary budget officer of direct costs associated with the carbon tax not indirect when he took into account the indirect cost he actually said that the it’s a net loss I’ll read exactly what he said when the economic impact is combined with the fiscal impact the net

Cost increases for all households reflecting the overall negative economic impact of the federal fuel charge how do you respond to that I respond in some cases he didn’t take the entire context of climate change and life on this planet altogether and the Damage that climate change costs none of that was

Taken into context none of that was taken into the formula you can’t live in this you can’t take this on in isolation you have to take it on in a broader context you know the real world so yes you’re right he did not take into account the cost associated with climate

Change but your analysis doesn’t take into account the indirect cost of the carbon tax so for example how much more we’re paying for food how much more we’re paying in some cases for other other products that we buy that have higher inputs because of the carbon tax those secondary costs those indirect

Costs have not been taken into account by your government or are you contending that they have been and still more Canadians are better off well I have to I have to contend something you just said earlier we did have you know preent food experts saying that no this is not

Added to the price of food um definitively um but you know what what we are look the whole idea of this was and this dates right back to you know Preston Manning we he defended this idea as being a market friendly way for the market to recognize that there’s some

Things and some products are more carbon intensive than others uh look if we this is a I think a smart policy it allows us frankly to take on much bigger Spenders in this area than you know like the Americans who have hundreds of billions of dollars that they can throw at at

Climate change and in effect are right now in the United States under the bid Administration but what we’re trying to do here is find a way where we can affect behavior in a good way so that we are lowering carbon emissions and then we are rewarding those companies and

People who produce products and services that are lower in carbon and intensity so we can put out those Market signals and at the same time make sure that 8 out of 10 families and households are not taking this out of pocket you know that that is what we have designed here

And and it’s what a lot of economists think is the most efficient way to make sure that we lower carbon emissions in this country reward businesses that that meet that price price Target that price signal and make sure that people have cold Hard Cash in their pockets again

Though when you talk about the effective of this policy the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development in the auditor General’s office flagged just three months ago that this policy along with 95% of the other policies that make up the suite of your climate policy hasn’t

Even spelled out the degree to which you expect to reduce carbon uh emissions so you haven’t articulated to what degree you expect the carbon price to reduce emissions you’re saying tonight that it’s the most effective way to do so but you haven’t spelled out by how much it will

Yeah and I think perhaps we we’ll do a better job of that as you know as the years progress I mean look this this is geared towards lowering emissions by using Market tools to do so rather than what we had always done you know before then which is kind of throw things

Against the wall with the best of intentions and seeing what would work this harnesses the market this puts a price signal on and puts a price on pollution and this rewards people who who get look because every everybody in a province gets the same check back so

That if you are spending if you are spending money on things that are not you does not have a higher price on pollution you get the same amount of money back which means that you save more money you know this is something that look it’s it’s something that we

Have to make sure that people do we that we do our best to make sure that people understand because it is so important it’s it’s it’s not just integral to I think fundamentally our Environmental Policy but also our fiscal policy and also frankly our competitiveness because if we can reward those businesses and

Those companies that are out out there and doing the right thing and affecting a price on pollution and doing their best to keep that low and in turn consumers are buying those products that is how we keep Canadians competitive but respectfully respectfully Minister your government has yet to show that’s what’s

Happening or that is that is actually proof that there is proof that it has happened you’re just saying trust us and overwhelmingly polls are showing that people don’t yeah and I think that’s why we got to get out there and make sure that people understand first of all that this

Is Cold Hard Cash that you’re getting in your pockets that eight or 10 families are doing better as a result so we got to we got to we got to make sure that we accurately we putting out there what is an actual fact right and so calling

Something I know this is simple you know calling something slightly a slightly different name than it was before but it is a more accurate name and we want people to understand that what we are trying to do here puts Canada in a very good place competitively it’ll also help

Us lower emissions which we frankly as an energy leader in the world have to do I want to pick up on the point you’re making about businesses being better off because I I did start off earlier in the interview asking you about the portion of revenues that your government had

Promised to return to small business indigenous groups and farmers and I I particularly want to look at small business and Indigenous people because there is according to your own website $2.5 billion that is supposed to be redistributed to those groups but has yet to be there was about $60 million

Early in on the program that you had two mechanisms through which that money was going to go through the programs ended up being scrap so only $60 million has been handed out those small businesses tonight are saying to your government we aren’t better off in fact we’re much

Worse off when will that money go back to them I know that minister gibo is talking to those mes and he’s working with them now on that so I expect something you know he’ll get back to them he’ll be if he’s not speaking to them right now he’ll be speaking to them

Very soon about getting them those answers so you do anticipate that two Bill $2.5 billion will be dispersed quickly and what message does it send that it hasn’t been yet for years I I just I just know that Minister gibo was on the case so I’ll leave that with him

Okay speaking of Minister gibo just before we go uh min Mr Oran I wanted to ask you about comments that he made this week that are drawing a lot of reaction this evening and ask you to clarify the position of your government he told the Montreal audience that your government

Will stop investing in new road infrastructure and today said he meant to say Ottawa won’t fund quote large road projects is it the position of your government that you will not fund things like ring roads in Alberta or Highway 413 in Ontario no I mean proofs in the pudding

You know I was just down in Windsor saw the Gordy how Bridge being built you got the Champlain Bridge being built we’re uh twinning the highway in in new fandon Labrador no very much so look he he was speaking in a particular context I think he explained today to you know to a

Specific audience um and you know was taken out of context but but no I mean the proofs in the pudding we’re out there we’re building ev’s got to drive on something yeah just to be clear though because you say he was speaking to a particular audience but he made

Some very general comments he says that uh the there will be no more envelopes from the federal government to enlarge the road Network he did not say Inc even today when he was walking back those comments he said oh I meant more spec I should have been more specific I meant

Large projects that’s not a you know oh we will still keep funding you’re saying something very different from what he said no no I’m saying look proofs in the pudding as I said uh you know we we’re going to be twinning the highways newf labador Champlain Bridge uh Gordy how

Bridge I mean you know EVs do have to drive on something people in this country do get around on roads um the point you know and the point of our entire climate policy is to lower emissions and that’s what we we’re intent on doing so no nothing’s changed

So that doesn’t mean for example that helping to fund 413 in Ontario is off the table I I don’t know much about 413 to be honest with you actually couldn’t comment on us but that’s a new road that the premier of that Province as Minister Gio’s comments uh indicate that you

Would not do something like that I’m just maybe more general terms I can ask you bluntly will your government still fund New Roads yeah we are and in fact that’s what we’re doing right now and you know we’re doing in my own Province so I you

Know I I don’t see that there’s a change I mean as I said Minister gibo said that uh he was taken out of context um I can tell you as the Prime Minister said in question period today uh proofs in the pudding nothing’s changed do you think

Minister gibo is taken out of context with all due respect the exact words that he used were the federal government there will be no more envelopes from the federal government to enlarge the road Network how is that taking anything out of context vashy I just know that that’s

What he told me and that’s what he said at the press conference and you know I have to I have to leave it there um I know certainly our policy on roads as I said proofs in the pudding I see it in my own provins what’s your message to

Canadians though who are worried that a reelected for example a liberal government will place a Primacy on uh investing in things that are directed at mitigating climate change versus trying to deal with the realities of much of this country which still depend on roads and highways we will always deal with the realities

Of this country we are liberals we are pragmatic we are practical it doesn’t mean that we are not ambitious uh it means that we are practical Minister I’ll leave it on that note thank you very much for your time this evening appreciate it thanks f

Labour Minister Seamus O’Regan defends the carbon tax, the framework of which is unchanged despite the rebrand to focus on rebates.

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